Talk:Santa Claus
Ded Moroz Although Ded Moroz is the Russian equivilent of Santa Claus they are two separate and distinct characters. A minor pet peeve of mine comic books have gods from a hundred different pantheons running around but one Santa Claus with a hundred different names. Tjb173 (talk) 04:50, November 7, 2013 (UTC) Well, you've got two choices then: 1) Complain. 2) Create a Ded Moroz page if it's that important to you. Oh, I see you chose the first.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:44, November 7, 2013 (UTC) Didn't want to alter or remove something from the Santa Claus entry without letting people know why and maybe getting other opinions on the subject.Tjb173 (talk) 17:07, November 8, 2013 (UTC) We have pages for the "hundred different pantheons" of Gods running around, I really don't see why a profile for the Russian equivalent of Santa Claus would be a problem. If you'd like a Ded Moroz page to be here, the contribute button is in the top right.Cebr1979 (talk) 21:59, November 8, 2013 (UTC) Indeed feel free to add the page, but I appreciate you taking others opinions into consideration. Crimsoncrusader (talk) 01:59, November 9, 2013 (UTC) 'RUDOLPH THE RED-NOSED REINDEER ' I understand that Rudolph is not in the public domain but I've read that his tv special was not properly copyrighted. If true, does that mean the original characters from that are public domain? I'm specifically curious about Hermey the Elf, The Bumble, Yukon Cornelius, King Moonracer, and the Island of Misfit Toys. JoeFrankenstein (talk) 05:14, November 4, 2014 (UTC) That's a really weird case. In theory, yes those characters should be PD but the US copyright office still counts the film as being copyrighted (can't remember why). There has never been a law passed to say that, though, it's always just been a sort of informal thing so... yes and no, I guess?Cebr1979 (talk) 05:18, November 4, 2014 (UTC) There is a rudolph cartoon that is public domain, but it is not the Rankin-Bass one that has all of those characters. Yes, it is. See here.Cebr1979 (talk) 08:52, November 12, 2014 (UTC) I created profiles for most of those characters tonight ('tis the season and all) and will finish the last few tomorrow.Cebr1979 (talk) 09:52, December 20, 2014 (UTC) :There's also a Santa's 9th Reindeer page now for logging purposes.Cebr1979 (talk) 18:51, January 13, 2017 (UTC) What constitutes a “first appearance” “First appearance is a date (just like every other page here) and the date of his first appearance is unknown. Where geographically people first started talking about him is not his first appearance.” wrote user Cebr1979. Do as you like; undo accurate and informative additions to articles if you wish. But the idea that a “first appearance is a date (just like every other page here)” is incorrect. A character’s first appearance is a story or cycle of stories, and the date is included if known. Although many characters do have “Unknown” as a first appearance, I suggest you look again at articles for other folkloric and mythological characters, like the Minotaur, Hercules, Medusa and Odin, a small smattering of the many articles that indicate the mythology or folklore of a culture as a “first appearance,” especially useful if a character was part of an oral tradition before being documented in writing. ElyaqimNYC (talk) 08:58, January 15, 2016 (UTC) Maybe to you but, that's not how we do things here. If some pages are wrong, then they need to be fixed.Cebr1979 (talk) 09:03, January 15, 2016 (UTC) I just want to be sure I understand the rules: Indicating “Greek mythology” or “European and North American folklore” as a first appearance is wrong because there is no date, but indicating “Unknown” is correct … even though it has no date either. Having “Unknown” as a value in the info‐box for a first appearance is just as dateless as the other values. And indicating mythology or folklore as “publisher” makes even less sense to me. Mythology and folklore are not publishers; Rand McNally are publishers. In fact, the very reason the dates are unknown is because the characters started out in unpublished oral tradition. I am not about to change anything, least of all not for Santa Claus, but a better compromise would probably be to combine our concepts and indicate “European and North American folklore, date unknown” or “Greek mythology, date unknown” as a first appearance. ElyaqimNYC (talk) 23:12, January 17, 2016 (UTC) Yes. Indicating "unknown" is correct if the date is unknown even though it has no date. The rest of that post was so non-sensical it gave me cancer.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:28, January 18, 2016 (UTC) :^^That response was pretty rank and deserves an apology. I am sorry, Elyaqim.Cebr1979 (talk) 07:15, December 30, 2016 (UTC) "Indicating “Greek mythology” or “European and North American folklore” as a first appearance is wrong..." I am beginning to re-think that. Don't go getting excited (yet)! I'm merely beginning to re-think it. :-) Cebr1979 (talk) 15:41, January 11, 2017 (UTC) I will try to contain my excitement. �� —ElyaqimNYC (talk) 00:32, January 13, 2017 (UTC) :(Hypothetically... Only "hypothetically" as of right now...) Say you put a time period in the infobox as a first appearance... What would you do with categorising? Would the page be left in the Unknown Debuts category or..?Cebr1979 (talk) 01:43, January 13, 2017 (UTC) ::(Hint: I do not want an "Ancient Greece Debuts" category - the debut categories are all sub-categories of the Characters by Year one, not "time period..." We've already got that covered)Cebr1979 (talk) 01:43, January 13, 2017 (UTC) :::(Basically, so long as those types of characters stay in the Unknown Debuts category... Fine! Have at 'er, knock yourself out, break a leg, have a ball, etc! BUT: only for characters with an unknown creator and... this is prob gonna piss you off but... for a character like Santa: the infobox can only state a time period where the name "Santa Claus" debuted! If you're wanting to state a time period where "Saint Nicholas" debuted... create a Saint Nicholas page!)Cebr1979 (talk) 02:17, January 13, 2017 (UTC) Άγιος Νικόλαος Going off this.Cebr1979 (talk) 04:20, January 9, 2017 (UTC) Over the course of my editing of PDSH, I have added real names and story titles in Hebrew, Japanese, Danish, Russian, German, Greek and possibly other languages that aren’t English, all without complaint. Considering we include no small number of characters who first appeared in works in these and other languages, an English‐only rule would seem unjustifiable. (And that no one thought to add Spring the Beauty’s original Russian name doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be there.) —ElyaqimNYC (talk) 17:03, January 9, 2017 (UTC) :It has nothing to do with what "no one thought." I created the Spring the Beauty page (and, as of right now, am the only person who's ever edited it). Since the first sentence of the origin section has her Russian name, clearly I did think of it. I just didn't put it in the infobox.Cebr1979 (talk) 17:37, January 9, 2017 (UTC) ::For example, I did not delete the name "Sinterklaas" from the first sentence of this article. Had it been in the infobox, however, I would have removed it from there.Cebr1979 (talk) 17:41, January 9, 2017 (UTC) So is the rule now that English is the only language allowed in info‐boxes? I don’t understand why that should be, but it would mean removing perfectly accurate and informative real names from the Momotaro, Apollo, Snow Queen and Jesus articles, for example. —ElyaqimNYC (talk) 17:55, January 9, 2017 (UTC) :Jesus (and also God) is a profile I was just coming here to comment on, actually. Even in English, his non-English names are used by English speaking people. (Let's switch from Jesus to God) For example, Jehovah's Witnesses refer to God as "Jehovah" even in English so... fine. Momotaro? I don't know. I didn't even know we had a page for him until just now (I'd never even heard of him until just now). Looking at that page, though, it seems like those are just different spellings of the same name (like the Snow Maiden infobox). Apollo? (I'm not going to google translate right now so...) If "Ἀπόλλων" is just the Greek version of the name, then, yes: it should be removed from the infobox and added to the body of the article. Snow Queen? If "Snedronningen" is just the words "Snow" and "Queen" put together in some other language, then, yes: it should be removed from the infobox and added to the body of the article. If it's a case like the Wicked Witch of the North, who was also named "Mombi," then the name should remain in the infobox (unless it was created by someone other than Hans Christian Andersen, of course).Cebr1979 (talk) 18:08, January 9, 2017 (UTC) ::(May I twist your own words somewhat?) Imagine if every language’s version of Santa Claus were in the infobox! That thing would be miles long!Cebr1979 (talk) 18:19, January 9, 2017 (UTC) If you want to have a rule that the names whereby characters are first known must not appear in any info‐box if they’re not in English, that’s your prerogative, even if it seems unnecessarily restrictive to me. We’re also not discussing every name a character might have in every language. Saint Nicholas was an ethnic Greek who lived in Hellenized Anatolia and, if I’m not mistaken, the earliest legends and hagiographies about him were in Greek. But whatevs. —ElyaqimNYC (talk) 00:27, January 13, 2017 (UTC) :"...were in Greek." :Exactly. We're an English wiki. The Zeus infobox only calls him "Zeus." If you want to add "Ζεύς," "Zeús," "Δίας," and "Días" to the body of the article... have at 'er, knock yourself out, break a leg, have a ball, etc!Cebr1979 (talk) 01:34, January 13, 2017 (UTC)